Some observations

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maninmachine
 
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Some observations

Postby maninmachine » 15 Nov 2013, 01:44

First off, the new update is really fun, big thanks. Here are some (unexpected) observations.

1. Scatter behavior changes on zoom.
Maintaining the same parameters and behavior scheme, I have seen a few instances where the pattern drawn will change distinctly at different zoom levels. One example is stemming from the 'from spherical' cast operator, shown below:
ex1.png
ex1.png (219.9 KiB) Viewed 10649 times

Zoom levels were set to 25% increments.
I've tested it with another helical brush like that one with similar results. It seems that at different zoom levels the helix number is changing (more or less spirals at different zoom levels). I'll post the test brush for reference.

[Edit: Looks like this is related to 3 and 4; since the multiplier is so high the frequency is going crazy.]

2. When manually adjusting the zoom my cursor kept redirecting elsewhere after clicking in the percentage box.
I think what's going on is: I was using a mouse to click inside. My mouse sits on a smooth surface so it moves slightly when I take my hand off it. That small movement was causing it to deselect the number a moment later, and the tooltip would pop up. Then I would type the number in and it would start selecting brushes. This is all happening in just a couple of seconds. Also, when I would hit enter after typing in the number it would change the zoom level but not turn off the zoom function. So then without realizing I would try to draw and end up readjusting the zoom.

3. Slider resolution is higher than number displayed.
Ok, so this is a tough one because it hits at another question. I sympathize that at some level all rendered lines are a series of points unless expressed in vector form, so shape interval will be extra sensitive. At that, what is the true spacing interval when the slider is set to 0? Do all points still follow the behavior scheme as defined at that resolution? For other things like size, opacity, and scale I'm seeing that I can very, very slightly adjust the true output without actually changing the number shown on the slider.

4. Sin
I'm thinking this is related to 3. When changing the period and watching the drawn function in the sinusoidal node, it goes way crazy when approaching 0 (to be expected). But feeding length into the sin function gets really tricky, since that resolution issue pops up as irregularities in the stroke.

5. Controller menu
First, wow look at all the new options. :D Second, wow look at all the new options. :eek: Haha, it has expanded so much it's becoming tedious (as a controller troll) to scroll through the different options. Can we get an option that will just show it as a simple list sans icons? Also, (and I know you all will be explaining what the new nodes do at some point, so this might be jumping the gun a little) it seems that all the yellow coded nodes are scatter related... Can we have an option to separate these from the orange (orange menu, yellow menu)?

6. Brushes parameter change having no effect!
Someone has posted a similar problem in this forum, and I didn't realize that this is something I had been seeing all along, too. Size is a good example. Obviously, you shouldn't be able to set the maximum size -smaller- than the minimum size. This works great. But after trying to force it (intentionally or unintentionally), sometimes it will stick. It either won't accept input, or the number will change but the output won't. I noticed, though, that if you open the controller panel and stick any node on the problem parameter then remove it, the parameter will no longer be stuck. This was actually a -huge- source of confusion when trying to learn Bi in the beginning. It might not all be related to the min/max sliders, though.

That said, it's all very exciting. Loving it. :heart:
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maninmachine
 
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Re: Some observations

Postby maninmachine » 15 Nov 2013, 04:52

Playing around with it some more... kind of a funny case here, the infinite candy cane of dooooom!

At closest zoom it just makes infinitely spiraling dots with one stroke, at farthest zoom it makes something more like a candy cane. :D

dots.png
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doomdoomdoom.png
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maninmachine
 
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Re: Some observations

Postby maninmachine » 15 Nov 2013, 05:05

Hijacking this post for one more thing. My preview window is randomly not showing the current brush I have selected:
preview.jpg
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u2bleank
 
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Re: Some observations

Postby u2bleank » 15 Nov 2013, 09:33

maninmachine :
I will try to answer to your questions >:)

1. Scatter behavior changes on zoom.

It's normal the scattering position is computed in ViewSpace not in Canvas Space.
For Example if you output {1,0} to this parameter it will shift the primitive position of 1 Pixel in X in the current View wich result in 2 pixel Shift in Canvas view if you have a zoom of 50%.

2. When manually adjusting the zoom my cursor kept redirecting elsewhere after clicking in the percentage box.

Yes you must press Esc to disable the zoom function after that.

3. Slider resolution is higher than number displayed.

Absolutely. If you enter 3.24564 to the Shape interval slider the effective value taken by the system will be 3.24564 even if it's 3 which is displayed.
The reason is to avoid too complex number visual flooding. The draw back is sometimes power user need precise values.

Also when you set 0 the system clamp it to the minimum Interval possible ( which is 0.5 pixel in CanvasSpace by memory ).

4. Sin

Yes the regular output is related to the shape interval. BUT you will be able to do perfect sinus we this feature will be available

5. Controller menu

So true.. this part will include a search box & filters because more operators will come.

6. Brushes parameter change having no effect!

I don't really understand. Do you have a Controller plugged to this parameter or not ?

At closest zoom it just makes infinitely spiraling dots with one stroke, at farthest zoom it makes something more like a candy cane. :D

Try to look at the Dots Aligned default brush. Especially the Scatter controller if you want to do something regular in ViewSpace ;)

Hijacking this post for one more thing. My preview window is randomly not showing the current brush I have selected:

:reyes: this is a well know problem and will be fixed ;)

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maninmachine
 
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Re: Some observations

Postby maninmachine » 16 Nov 2013, 01:25

Lightning response time! :up:

OK, some of this stuff is definitely related. I need to redirect the point/questions; it's hard not being very knowledgeable about all of it. :?

On the infinitessimal topic...

u2bleank wrote:It's normal the scattering position is computed in ViewSpace not in Canvas Space.
For Example if you output {1,0} to this parameter it will shift the primitive position of 1 Pixel in X in the current View wich result in 2 pixel Shift in Canvas view if you have a zoom of 50%.


I've confirmed that this is true with a finite example. So theoretically, at any zoom level a brush stroke should exhibit similar scatter proportions (size, interval, scale, as well). Therefore, regardless of zoom level the rendered stroke would look the same. This is true until the required brush function resolution exceeds what the program can actually draw...

u2bleank wrote:Absolutely. If you enter 3.24564 to the Shape interval slider the effective value taken by the system will be 3.24564 even if it's 3 which is displayed.
The reason is to avoid too complex number visual flooding. The draw back is sometimes power user need precise values.

Also when you set 0 the system clamp it to the minimum Interval possible ( which is 0.5 pixel in CanvasSpace by memory ).


The 0.5pixel rule is a really great bit of information, and at the heart of it all, I think. For example, if the sin period is really small (as it approaches very close to 0) the line resolution has to be readjusted to the 0.5 pixel spacing. Ok, then it wouldn't likely be a uniform change and here come the irregularities...

u2bleank wrote:Yes the regular output is related to the shape interval. BUT you will be able to do perfect sinus we this feature will be available


Oh, I was misunderstanding before. :redface: So the stroke modifier will be vector based and not have the high frequency issue?

I suppose none of this really matters; I don't see it as a problem, and it causes some pretty cool effects. The candy cane on far away zoom is the true output, while at close zoom it is being readjusted to the 0.5 pixels so it gets pushed apart as dots. I wonder about a notification that our brush settings are exceeding the possible output of the program. It would be difficult to identify, difficult to implement, and some people would probably find it annoying, haha. Regarding this topic, I also wonder about the ramifications of doing something about all the requests for "more than 100% zoom". If nothing else, at least this discussion here if someone else ends up puzzling over it. Thanks for helping me understand.

On the deselection topic...
u2bleank wrote:Yes you must press Esc to disable the zoom function after that.

Yeah, that part wasn't so bad, more of a preference thing I suppose. The deselection makes the interface tricky sometimes, though. I'll try to post a video of what's going on to better explain.

[Edit: Looks like it's just the tooltips.]

On the menu topic...
u2bleank wrote:So true.. this part will include a search box & filters because more operators will come.

Awesome. :love:

On the stuck brush topic...
u2bleank wrote:I don't really understand. Do you have a Controller plugged to this parameter or not ?

I've seen it happen with or without controllers before it trips. I'll try to post a video of this as well. (Might take me a little bit, haven't made a video like these before)

Thanks again for your help. :)
Last edited by maninmachine on 17 Nov 2013, 00:38, edited 1 time in total.

dirtyklingon
 
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Joined: 24 Sep 2013, 01:14

Re: Some observations

Postby dirtyklingon » 16 Nov 2013, 06:36

fraps works for recording. bandicam has a longer trial record time so that should work too.

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maninmachine
 
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Re: Some observations

Postby maninmachine » 17 Nov 2013, 00:37

Thanks for the recommendation, dirtyklingon. Bandicam worked great.

On deselection...
[1: http://youtu.be/IbSiao9Mj64 ]
[2: http://youtu.be/jDriI06Y4aU ]

Draw test...
[1: http://youtu.be/v96URJeZiMw ]
[2: http://youtu.be/7G77qcH2064 ]

Still looking for a reliable cause of sticking...

Edit: Ok, here's one example.
[1: http://youtu.be/SI5cs29PKAE ]

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u2bleank
 
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Re: Some observations

Postby u2bleank » 18 Nov 2013, 14:37



I saw, something is really strange in your video.. The canvas cursor is still visible while it should not. This a probably why your input isn't correctly accepted. I add it as a bug.


:up: Excellent tests

Anyway it's "normal" the length is in ViewSpace but if you set a function with a frequency who exceed the size of 1 pixel the result change when you change the zoom. for more details

Edit: Ok, here's one example.
[1: http://youtu.be/SI5cs29PKAE ]


Hummm :eek: another bug for us

Anyway Many thanks for your efforts :thanx:

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maninmachine
 
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Re: Some observations

Postby maninmachine » 19 Nov 2013, 19:16

Thanks for the link, what a way to spend a lunch break. :learn: This is what I gathered... What we're seeing are the aliases (harmonic reconstructions) of an undersampled (low resolution) signal (brush function). Increasing the resolution/dpi would increase the sampling and would (hopefully) allow the nyquist criterion to be met. That's why I saw multiple iterations of the same pattern when close to 0% zoom on the FromSpherical scatter brush, and zooming in eventually caused it to be undersampled (same with the candy cane). Thanks again for the trouble. It's nice to have words to put to the idea.

Bi: the conceptual learning tool :)


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